SocraticGadfly: 25th Amendment
Showing posts with label 25th Amendment. Show all posts
Showing posts with label 25th Amendment. Show all posts

May 18, 2026

The 25th Amendment solution, or non-solution, republished with response to Blogger

NOTE, May 21, 2026: I am REpublishing this after Blogger said it was "unpublishing" it because it allegedly violated community guidelines. I was just given a link to all community guidelines without saying WHAT guideline was violated. That's more gaslighting than Elmo and his minions on Shitter.

There is NO adult content here. There is LESS THAN NO child exploitation or abuse. Nothing dangerous that I can tell, and certainly nothing illegal. (Describing a hypothetical-only quasi-coup under the 25 Amendment is certainly not illegal.) Skipping down the list, there is no misleading comment related to democratic principles, or to other things. Nothing deceptive, fraudulent or scammy. No harassment; it's legitimate talk of Trump's psychiatric background.

I got an email about this as well, from a "no-reply" Blogger account, which had no more explanation than the note on Blogger. 

That said, fuckers on Blogger? I'm also copy-pasting this to Substack. Per the email, I'll click your link. I'll also copy-paste it here, anew. How's them apples?

If it was the one dead link I removed, you're still shitheads for not telling me yourself. 

 

Good old Rusty Douthat is proposing that we look at the 25th Amendment, rather than the impeachment process, as a way of dethroning President Trump.

Update: Proving that Peter Principleship stupidity is bipartisan for inside-the-Beltway / Acela Corridor pundits, Richard Cohen halfway makes the same call, though he doesn't go full Douthat.

Beyond my continuing to reject the idea of a Trump-Putin conspiracy, I do agree with Douthat that Trump probably hasn't risen to the level of "high crimes and misdemeanors" prescribed by the Constitutional impeachment process in part because he's too dumb to do that.

So, yes, let's look at the 25th Amendment.

Section 4 is the applicable portion:

Section 4. Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President. 
Thereafter, when the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that no inability exists, he shall resume the powers and duties of his office unless the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive department or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit within four days to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office. Thereupon Congress shall decide the issue, assembling within forty-eight hours for that purpose if not in session. If the Congress, within twenty-one days after receipt of the latter written declaration, or, if Congress is not in session, within twenty-one days after Congress is required to assemble, determines by two-thirds vote of both Houses that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall continue to discharge the same as Acting President; otherwise, the President shall resume the powers and duties of his office.
Several thoughts.

First, this is an invitation to a quasi-coup by a savvy Veep. Mike Pence is certainly more savvy than Trump. And, people like Rusty Douthat would greatly prefer him. In fact, I've half-jokingly tweeted that Trump tapped Pence as sort of a hostage against Congressional Democrats.

You just have to round up half the cabinet, plus one, and say, "Voila, I'm the acting president."

Then, if Trump contests it?

Oops, you're back to a quasi-impeachment setting.

Two-thirds vote of both houses of Congress.

So, first, for this quasi-coup to succeed, Pence has to be a good vote-organizer, and a good vote-counter along with that.

Second, Members of Congress must have gonads nearly as big as they would for impeachment. Charles Cooke at National Review talks about the "psychic shock" of invoking the amendment. He's primarily referring to Trump voters, but this must also be extended to Congress, whose members in general like the daylight of responsibility about as much as cockroaches.

Third, it seems pretty clear this provides for a JFK-type situation, as Cooke also notes; in fact, it was in the wake of his assassination, and wonders about where U.S. leadership would have been at had Lee Harvey Oswald not killed him, but, say, the head shot did permanently incapacitate him, that the amendment were passed.

In this case, even for the initial coup, let alone two-thirds of Congress, Pence would have to get a psychiatrist sign off on a mental health evaluation. First, is Trump "diminished" in that sense? Probably not. Is he an idiot? Yes.

(Sidebar and addendum: If a threat of the 25th Amendment could be used to force Trump to take ADHD meds [dead link removed], if that's what he needs, well, in that limited sense, it might work. But, the threat has to be credible in the first place.)

And, Oliver Wendell Holmes, from the Supreme Court bench, long ago spoke about the rights of America to have idiotic laws and, presumably and tacitly behind that, idiotic government officials.

For example:
I always say, as you know, that if my fellow citizens want to go to Hell I will help them. It's my job.
And, unless something is unconstitutional, judges theoretically rule by statute, then common law.

So, no, Rusty, it's a non-solution. And I think you know that. Basically, you're trying to fart in already stinking bath water and pretend you're giving us a bubble bath.

There's also this sidebar, written about impeachment but also applicable to use of the 25th Amendment. What if it fails? You think Trump is stark raving mad NOW? To add to that, Bruce Bartlett notes that Faux News et al would likely have shielded Nixon today while sheepdogging Congressional Republicans.

==

Sidebar: This is yet another argument for parliamentary, or at least quasi-parliamentary, government. (A Donald Trump would have never risen to run the GOP. Unfortunately, a Paul Ryan might have, and a Hillary Clinton almost certainly would have headed the Democratic Party. Of course, quasi-parliamentary government would theoretically provide more openings for third parties.)

And, I also think Rusty knows THAT.

Per my review of "Frozen Republic," the real answer is constitutional reform that goes well beyond eliminating the Electoral College. All of this is badly, badly needed.

Sidebar 2: This is the second blog post in a row where I've had to note the Peter Principle class of inside-the-Beltway, Acela Corridor "journalists" has limited understanding of the U.S. Constitution. That's not to mention the Texas Legislature's ongoing cluelessness, mixed with willfulness, about that document.

==

Update, Feb. 14, 2019: It's clear that Andrew McCabe knows little about how the 25th Amendment operates, as far as who invokes it, and what it can and cannot do. Ergo, I'll still assume it's more likely that he, not Rod Rosenstein, is lying about the idea of invoking it.

April 20, 2026

George Conway, Never Trumpers and Blue MAGA, and the 25th Amendment and general stupidity

This article is based in fair part on an interview that Never Trumper Conway, now running for Congress as a Democrat for Congress, had with the New Republic, and in part on the latest development of my thoughts on the general stupidity of both Never Trumps and Blue MAGA about the 25th Amendment.

Conway's stupidity is reflected in the extended subhed for the story:

Conway, the former GOPer turned Trump critic who’s running for Congress as a Democrat, lays out his case that Republicans will eventually have no choice but to remove the president before his term ends.

Sure they'll have choices, George. That starts with the remaining portion of the part continuing to cower in fear, or however you phrase it. 

Let's do simple math.

For the next Congress, after the midterms, to remove President Donald J. Trump from office by the one means that is a Congressional prerogative — impeachment by the House of Representatives and conviction by the Senate — would require one-sixth (approximately) of Republicans in the Senate to vote aye for conviction. (Impeachment itself needs a simple majority.) Trump could launch a tactical nuke at Iran and that wouldn't happen.

Rethuglicans talking anonymously to Politico is not the same as Rethuglicans casting a record vote, and thinking that, even if they've done good head-counting on paper, an ultimate vote like this is actual nut-cutting, not more academic head-counting. 

Also, re the Anon Y. Mice talking to Politico, with summer vacations coming soon and other items, getting the creaky wheels of Congress to go through and complete the whole process before the November election day? Not happening. (That said, the Politico piece, linked by the TNR, is general bitching; not one of the Mice, let alone a named Trump flunky, mentions actually getting rid of him.)

Conway then raises Option B:

And you see it also in a lot of the Republican influencers—the Megyn Kellys, the Joe Rogans, and the Tucker Carlsons of the world. They’re basically talking about the 25th Amendment now.

Well, as someone who swatted that down, repeatedly, during Trump's first term, let's look at the actual amendment (Wiki link) again. 

The first two sections are about the Veep explicitly becoming president, then the process to get a new Veep, so not relevant here. The third is about a president declaring himself temporarily constrained; it's been invoked more than once during serious presidential medical procedures. 

So, to the "nut graf" of Section 4? In reality, it's more convoluted than most people think, and to the degree Congress might have to become involved, has higher hurdles than impeachment and trial.

Let's dig in:

Section 4. Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President. 
Thereafter, when the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that no inability exists, he shall resume the powers and duties of his office unless the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive department [sic][note 2][7] or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit within four days to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office. Thereupon Congress shall decide the issue, assembling within forty-eight hours for that purpose if not in session. If the Congress, within twenty-one days after receipt of the latter written declaration, or, if Congress is not in session, within twenty-one days after Congress is required to assemble, determines by two-thirds vote of both Houses that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall continue to discharge the same as Acting President; otherwise, the President shall resume the powers and duties of his office.

OK, several things.

One, on the political side, unless Trump clearly has a memory-loss dementia, does Bagger Vance have the balls to initiate this process. You know better than that, and Conway should know better; if he doesn't, he has less business being in Congress than Eric Swal(low)well. 

Basically, in anything short of a clear memory-loss type dementia, or a clear brain injury similar in level to JFK's but with a president still living, the 25th Amendment essentially requires a coup d'etat against the president by the vice president, per the first paragraph.

Per the first half of the second paragraph, it requires them to hold their own feet to the fire against an enraged president.

And should that play out, beyond the impeachment process, there's the higher hurdle of how a veep and fellow plotters must convince two thirds of BOTH houses of Congress they're right. 

And, that process plays out over 21 days, plenty of time for plenty of machinations.

Behind all this, and deliberately left vague in the framing of the amendment, what constitutes being "unable to discharge the powers and duties of [the] office," or "inability"?

Back to Conway:

They have a guy who—they’ve overlooked his mental disorders in the past, dismissed them. They’ve overlooked his lies, they’ve overlooked his depravity. They’ve overlooked the fact that he is basically an adjudicated sexual abuser, that he’s a convicted criminal. They overlook these things because it served their purposes. It no longer serves their purposes.

None of those are "inability." You, and some Anon Y. Mice in the GOP, and plenty of Blue MAGA, might not like HOW Trump is "discharging," but that's not the same as "inability."  

Left unaddressed is what if a president fights his way back into power, but then looks worse? There's nothing to stop a veep, with Cabinet backing, to go down this road again. And, there's nothing to stop a president from fighting it again. 

I'll quote more Conway, the next paragraph after the previous quote, which ties to that, and other political issues:

And in terms of what happens in the U.S. Senate—which we can get back to, and why that matters, of course—the Senate is full of cowards. The Republican senators are cowards and they’ve been afraid of Trump.

Yeah, one-sixth of the Senate (plus one-sixth of the House, which Conway doesn't mention and which shows his ignorance of the actual 25th Amendment) ain't doing that. 

I modify that. Later in the piece, Conway indicates his knowledge (but not whether he has actual understanding):

We need to, basically, I think we need to possibly even put criminal sanctions in place for people who refuse to spend the money in accordance with Congress’s will. And there’s also—I talked about this even before I launched the campaign—we need to create that advisory body to act as the judge of whether the president is fit to continue in office, and replace the cabinet.

Yeah. The Washington solution — Congress punting responsibility to a committee, in hopes the problem goes away or resolves itself in 21 days. At the same time, there's more ignorance. Such a body ONLY gets a bite at the apple of the president, not the cabinet, and only comes into play when the veep gets a majority of the cabinet to tell Congress the president isn't fit, if that's what Conway meant. If it just means replacing the cabinet as who makes the call? It still requires the veep to start the process.

Note that "AND" word at the start of Section 4 carefully. Section 4 of the 25th Amendment is inoperable without the participation of the sitting vice president. 

And, if you think Bagger Vance has the balls for that? You're really a fucking idiot. 

Finally, as for Conway and other Never Trumpers, whether still Republican or now ex-Republican? No sympathy. Trump was a serial liar, a racist, a thug with Mafia ties and a publicly admitted sexual predator before he was elected the first time. 

==

The 25th Amendment is limited in another way, directly connected to the JFK assassination that inspired it, and that itself could inspire some evil genius to do particular acts. Say that, in Dallas 1963, Oswald's first shots are pretty much as they happened, but the third shot is, say, 1 cm higher. Jack Kennedy survives but is pretty much brain dead. Say that Oswald gets off a fourth shot, or even fourth and fifth, and then takes out LBJ in his car, and he's stone cold dead.

There IS NO Veep to start the 25th Amendment process, and a brain-dead president is unable to nominate one. 

In short, while the 25th Amendment is better than nothing, it's not that good.

It also, for people who worship at either the originalist or liberal originalist, King James Version or New King James Version, of the Constitution of the United States, shows the structural failure of the strong-presidential system of government, at least in the US. (France has an impeachment process similar to the US, but a Google says nothing like a 25th Amendment. That said, like the 25th, it involves a two-thirds vote of BOTH Assembly and Senate, and per Le Monde, is at least as convoluted as the 25th.)

In the UK? If similar were happening? Tories would be looking for a no-confidence vote and trying to round up sufficient Labor, Lib Dems and others in the Commons for a simple majority vote. 

June 29, 2024

I come to bury Biden, not praise him

Boy, what a clusterfuck that was June 27!

That said, NO Dem is "stepping forward," contra Politico, to replace him. Maybe DNC minions will organize something in a vape-filled back room, but NO elected politico is stepping forward and inviting a massive sniper squad as a target.

(And, contra the "just a cold" people, Biden's debate prep reportedly went fine.)

As for the "fun"? Here's just a few of my tweets, from oldest to newest, late Thursday:

And:

And:

And:

And:

And:

And:

And:

And:

And:

But, let's go to one or to others. Like, this massive tool and knob of the Blue MAGA / BlueAnon world:

Finally, I'm not a duopolist, so don't blame me. I'm not a Jill Stein-supporting duopolist, so don't blame me for her hypocrisy. Vote PSL.

Speaking of, I assume Jeet's take at The Nation wasn't bad for the left hand of the duopoly. (Not a paid subscriber.) At least it's not John Nichols.

Left-BlueAnon Jared Yates Sexton says "Joe's gotta go."

A majority of Democratic voters agree

That's as Puff Hoes talks about "a newly energized Joe Biden" hitting the stump a day later.

But, the most interesting and most in depth comes for last. Sy Hersh has this Substack free

He starts by saying this isn't new, and referencing it to the Ukraine and Gaza situations:

The reality behind all of this, as I’ve been told for months, is that the president is simply no longer there, in terms of understanding the contradictions of the policies he and his foreign policy advisers have been carrying out.

Not buying it. This may be "Irish Alzheimer's Joe," or on Israel, "Leon Uris Exodus Joe," as I've said before. I do NOT think the two wars are #DementiaJoe.

That said, the nut graf is here:

The real disgrace is not only Biden’s, but those of the men and women around him who have kept him more and more under wraps. He is a captive, and as he rapidly diminished over the past six months. I have been hearing for months about the increasing isolation of the president, from his one-time pals in the Senate, who find that he is unable to return their calls. Another old family friend, whose help has been sought by Biden on key issues since his days as vice president, told me of a plaintive call from the president many months ago. Biden said the White House was in chaos and he needed his friend’s help. The friend said he begged off and then told me, with a laugh: “I would rather have a root canal procedure every day than go to work there.” A long retired Senate colleague was invited by Biden to join him on a foreign trip, and the two played cards and shared a drink or two on the Air Force One flight going out. The senator was barred by Biden’s staff from joining the return flight home.

Who's to blame? Sy says it's Tom Donilon, and ties it back to Nat-Sec Nutsacks™ land by saying Donilon wanted to be Biden's CIA head.

That said, as far as booting Biden? Not all of Hersh's sources agree. A few want to ride it out, and a few think it's already too late, so just bite the bullet:

Not everyone I talked to today agreed that it is time to force a Biden resignation and hope for the best at the Democratic National Convention in Chicago in August—to dump the ticket and seek new candidates. “My humble opinion,” one longtime contributor to the Democratic Party told me, “is to let the dust settle. Must examine the realistic options before some quick reaction creates an internal Democratic Party split with far-reaching consequences beyond 2024. Accept reality . . . 2024 is likely beyond recovery at this point. Too steep a hill to climb. Plan and execute a long-term plan to counter Mr. Orange and build a moderate platform for the recovery . . . and let Biden wander off to the Jersey Pine Barrens.”

Well, that's interesting.

That said, Allan Lichtman, who's correctly predicted nine of the last 10 races, says that Dems shouldn't dump Biden. He starts by noting Reagan's first-debate clusterfuck in 1984, which I remember, too, and notes concerns about Reagan's age back then.

Besides, there's other good news. Whether because of the early midsummer date or because lots of Merikkka knew in advance it would be train wreck, one-third fewer people watched than four years ago.

And, in addition, Biden will forget about this soon enough anyway.

Kuffner, after more than 24 hours? Still silent, still pretending nothing's happening. Three posts Friday, three Saturday, at least three Sunday before his usual link dump.

December 19, 2019

Greg AtLast is back on impeachment, 25thAmendment
and Aaron Paté, Matt Snidely and other OTB stenos

Yes, he's back. Greg AtLast, still doing his best black hat work:



Per what friend Greg has said, here's my take on the 25th Amendment vis-a-vis Trump.

Here's one of my takes on the alleged outside the box stenos. And another.

And here's my take on Putin being too smart to collude with Trump.

As for the Trump Train riders who claim every previous impeachment has been on criminal charges?

Not even close. The Tenure of Office Act was entirely civil. So was every other "not doing your job" (the way we want you to) charge brought against Andrew Johnson.

Of course, what friend Greg didn't mention is that this is really yet another argument for moving at least closer to parliamentary government.

Also beyond Greg, there are other items that are more solid impeachment grounds than Ukraine. Such as spending money without Congressional appropriation for his wall.

May 18, 2017

The 25th Amendment solution (or non-solution)

NOTE, May 21, 2026: I am REpublishing this after Blogger said it was "unpublishing" it because it allegedly violated community guidelines. I was just given a link to all community guidelines without saying WHAT guideline was violated. That's more gaslighting than Elmo and his minions on Shitter.

There is NO adult content here. There is LESS THAN NO child exploitation or abuse. Nothing dangerous that I can tell, and certainly nothing illegal. (Describing a hypothetical-only quasi-coup under the 25 Amendment is certainly not illegal.) Skipping down the list, there is no misleading comment related to democratic principles, or to other things. Nothing deceptive, fraudulent or scammy. No harassment; it's legitimate talk of Trump's psychiatric background.

I got an email about this as well, from a "no-reply" Blogger account, which had no more explanation than the note on Blogger. 

That said, fuckers on Blogger? I'm also copy-pasting this to Substack. Per the email, I'll click your link. I'll also copy-paste it here, anew. How's them apples?

If it was the one dead link I removed, you're still shitheads for not telling me yourself. 

 

Good old Rusty Douthat is proposing that we look at the 25th Amendment, rather than the impeachment process, as a way of dethroning President Trump.

Update: Proving that Peter Principleship stupidity is bipartisan for inside-the-Beltway / Acela Corridor pundits, Richard Cohen halfway makes the same call, though he doesn't go full Douthat.

Beyond my continuing to reject the idea of a Trump-Putin conspiracy, I do agree with Douthat that Trump probably hasn't risen to the level of "high crimes and misdemeanors" prescribed by the Constitutional impeachment process in part because he's too dumb to do that.

So, yes, let's look at the 25th Amendment.

Section 4 is the applicable portion:

Section 4. Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President. 
Thereafter, when the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that no inability exists, he shall resume the powers and duties of his office unless the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive department or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit within four days to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office. Thereupon Congress shall decide the issue, assembling within forty-eight hours for that purpose if not in session. If the Congress, within twenty-one days after receipt of the latter written declaration, or, if Congress is not in session, within twenty-one days after Congress is required to assemble, determines by two-thirds vote of both Houses that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall continue to discharge the same as Acting President; otherwise, the President shall resume the powers and duties of his office.
Several thoughts.

First, this is an invitation to a quasi-coup by a savvy Veep. Mike Pence is certainly more savvy than Trump. And, people like Rusty Douthat would greatly prefer him. In fact, I've half-jokingly tweeted that Trump tapped Pence as sort of a hostage against Congressional Democrats.

You just have to round up half the cabinet, plus one, and say, "Voila, I'm the acting president."

Then, if Trump contests it?

Oops, you're back to a quasi-impeachment setting.

Two-thirds vote of both houses of Congress.

So, first, for this quasi-coup to succeed, Pence has to be a good vote-organizer, and a good vote-counter along with that.

Second, Members of Congress must have gonads nearly as big as they would for impeachment. Charles Cooke at National Review talks about the "psychic shock" of invoking the amendment. He's primarily referring to Trump voters, but this must also be extended to Congress, whose members in general like the daylight of responsibility about as much as cockroaches.

Third, it seems pretty clear this provides for a JFK-type situation, as Cooke also notes; in fact, it was in the wake of his assassination, and wonders about where U.S. leadership would have been at had Lee Harvey Oswald not killed him, but, say, the head shot did permanently incapacitate him, that the amendment were passed.

In this case, even for the initial coup, let alone two-thirds of Congress, Pence would have to get a psychiatrist sign off on a mental health evaluation. First, is Trump "diminished" in that sense? Probably not. Is he an idiot? Yes.

(Sidebar and addendum: If a threat of the 25th Amendment could be used to force Trump to take ADHD meds [dead link removed], if that's what he needs, well, in that limited sense, it might work. But, the threat has to be credible in the first place.)

And, Oliver Wendell Holmes, from the Supreme Court bench, long ago spoke about the rights of America to have idiotic laws and, presumably and tacitly behind that, idiotic government officials.

For example:
I always say, as you know, that if my fellow citizens want to go to Hell I will help them. It's my job.
And, unless something is unconstitutional, judges theoretically rule by statute, then common law.

So, no, Rusty, it's a non-solution. And I think you know that. Basically, you're trying to fart in already stinking bath water and pretend you're giving us a bubble bath.

There's also this sidebar, written about impeachment but also applicable to use of the 25th Amendment. What if it fails? You think Trump is stark raving mad NOW? To add to that, Bruce Bartlett notes that Faux News et al would likely have shielded Nixon today while sheepdogging Congressional Republicans.

==

Sidebar: This is yet another argument for parliamentary, or at least quasi-parliamentary, government. (A Donald Trump would have never risen to run the GOP. Unfortunately, a Paul Ryan might have, and a Hillary Clinton almost certainly would have headed the Democratic Party. Of course, quasi-parliamentary government would theoretically provide more openings for third parties.)

And, I also think Rusty knows THAT.

Per my review of "Frozen Republic," the real answer is constitutional reform that goes well beyond eliminating the Electoral College. All of this is badly, badly needed.

Sidebar 2: This is the second blog post in a row where I've had to note the Peter Principle class of inside-the-Beltway, Acela Corridor "journalists" has limited understanding of the U.S. Constitution. That's not to mention the Texas Legislature's ongoing cluelessness, mixed with willfulness, about that document.

==

Update, Feb. 14, 2019: It's clear that Andrew McCabe knows little about how the 25th Amendment operates, as far as who invokes it, and what it can and cannot do. Ergo, I'll still assume it's more likely that he, not Rod Rosenstein, is lying about the idea of invoking it.